Isis ([info]isiscolo) wrote,
@ 2003-08-13 18:15:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Entry tags:beta reading

confessions of a snarky beta (#4)
A lot of fairly sophisticated writers who are relentless self-editors don't see the need for a beta editor. Their stories are usually free of the grammatical and spelling errors that mark the work of poorer writers; they certainly don't need someone for the technical fixes. But really, this type of editing is the least interesting (and least useful) thing I do as a beta.

Perhaps it's only after a writer reaches a certain level that the rest comes into play; it's hard to focus on whether a character is behaving consistently when you're distracted by misspellings. But it's far more rewarding to take something that's almost perfect and smooth out the rough edges, than it is to grind through the long process of fixing numerous obvious flaws.

A fresh pair of eyes sees things that the author misses. Jaded by long exposure to her own story and knowing all the backstory details that perhaps never get explicitly included in the story, her own eyes slide over things that jar to the beta reader. This is why multiple betas are so valuable -- each one adds a different viewpoint, a different insight.

Rather than give examples of how I have beta'ed others' stories (which might embarrass the authors!), I thought it might be enlightening to show a few ways in which my most recent SSFF story, In Want of a Wife, benefited from my three most excellent betas, [info]telensar, [info]fabularasa, and [info]amanuensis1. This will be more interesting if you've read (and if you liked :-) the story. In fact, it may not be interesting at all; the process of writing might be like politics and sausage, best not peered into too closely, so be warned. However, I'm carefully writing around any potential spoilers (note the SS/?? in the pairing), just in case anyone wishes to read this first, and the story later.



These are not all the comments the betas made, just the more interesting (to me) ones that resulted in significant changes. They also show how each one noticed different things about the story. I'm not going to bore you with the praise and compliments they all carefully interlarded in their criticism, but those back-pats were important too, because they showed me what I did right.

In my original first draft, I had the following exchange:

"A pleasure to meet you," murmured the girl, her grey eyes fixed on his, her lips curved upward very slightly, the merest hint of a smile.

"Severus Snape," he said, taking the proffered hand. He'd have to buy a ring, wouldn't he. "And you are?"

[info]telensar pointed out: It's a subtle class thing, but what you say on
meeting people for the first time is a huge class marker, and may
differ on both sides of the Atlantic, and even in different parts of
the continents. I have read that saying anything but "how do you do?"
is an indicator of lower class, and that "pleased to meet you" is,
while very polite in some circles, regarded as hopelessly non-U by
the truly posh.


So the passage became:
"How do you do," murmured the girl, her grey eyes fixed on his, her lips curved upward very slightly, the merest hint of a smile.

"How do you do," he said, taking the proffered hand. He'd have to buy a ring, wouldn't he. "Severus Snape. And you are?"

I also changed the meeting between Lady Alighieri and Elizabeth to reflect this class-language thing.

[info]telensar was also my French advisor, for the bits in French. And when I wrote the following:
He spoke the triggering words and felt the familiar wrench,
and they were standing in the foyer of Auberge du Chaudron d'Or, a fine
hotel in the Parisian equivalent of Diagon Alley.

she said: Should be "the Auberge" or "l'Auberge". And Paris rather than Parisian,
although that's not something I can defend. Paris equivalent; Parisian
manners. Paris metro. Paris suburb, a Parisian accent. You know?


I bowed to her superior knowledge of all things French, and changed them.

[info]fabularasa is an excellent writer, and like me she is attuned to cadence, the sounds of the words as well as the structure of the sentences. I wrote:
Sinshoe Alley was not far from Diagon Alley, and he took care of his more quotidian shopping needs before slipping into the shadows of the somewhat seamier side of town.

Well, I got what I deserved when she said: *wiping spit off sleeve* perhaps a trifle too alliterative, sssweetie?
You bet. The offending phrase became, "slipping into the shadows of the less respectable side of town," which satisfied my alliterative ear but didn't hit it with a hammer.

I wanted to establish the tone of Felicia's establishment right away. My original draft read:
At Number 23, Sinshoe Alley, the card was taken and scrutinized at length by an impassive doorman before Snape was admitted into a small but elegant drawing room. The carpet was so lush that his feet made no sound, the chair he was directed to was made from finely carved ebony and seemed to conform to his body as he sat, and when he sampled the tiny cakes that appeared on the low table by his side he found that they were exquisitely flavored.

[info]fabularasa said: [This sentence] could be stronger, less passive, more direct: His feet sank without sound into the lush carpet, the chair of finely carved ebony conformed to his body as he sat, and the tiny cakes that magically appeared on the low table beside him evaporated on the tongue in a burst of exquisite flavor. Even if you decide to keep it as is, the double prepositional phrase offputs a bit - changing it to “on the low table beside him” cuts through that somewhat. She also pointed out that if I used "ushered" rather than "admitted" I would not have to have him "directed" to a chair.

I didn't take her suggestion quite verbatim, here, because I wanted to emphasize his surroundings rather than his actions, but I used a lot of it. These two sentences became:
At Number 23, Sinshoe Alley, the card was taken and scrutinized at length by an impassive doorman before Snape was ushered into a small but elegant drawing room. The carpet was so lush that his feet made no sound; the chair of finely carved ebony conformed to his body as he sat, and the tiny cakes that magically appeared on the low table beside him evaporated on his tongue in a burst of exquisite flavor.

(I should also point out that [info]telensar wondered whether Snape would actually eat something from an unknown source. I decided to leave it in, for the atmosphere, and let the reader rationalize, as I did, that perhaps he tested it with some spell before eating.)

In my first draft, I had:
In bed. Severus had never been in bed with a woman; it wasn't something he had ever felt the need to try, as he had known from his adolescence that he was attracted only to his own sex. He even felt obscurely grateful that she had disappeared behind the bathroom door before he had finished removing his clothes. Pulling on his nightshirt, he slipped under the covers.

[info]amanuensis1 wrote:I felt like I wanted a little something more here. I felt like there should have been a moment of "one of us could sleep on the chaise" in here. Not necessarily spoken, but possibly wrested with, mentally, by Severus. They have no one to keep up the front for right now. Why do they have to share a
bed? You don't need to make up a contrived well-we-don't-want-the-hotel-maids-talking excuse, that would be too much, but maybe S. considers offering to sleep on the divan, and then wonders, why am I the one to put himself out here, and then imagines himself having to ask E. to sleep on the divan and feeling churlish, so...

And I thought she was right, so this paragraph became:
In bed. Severus had never been in bed with a woman; it wasn't something he had ever felt the need to try, as he had known from his adolescence that he was attracted only to his own sex. He even felt obscurely grateful that she had disappeared behind the bathroom door before he had finished removing his clothes. Perhaps he should offer to sleep on the chaise longue? Although, since he was paying for this ridiculously expensive room, she should be the one -- no, he couldn't ask her that. It was a large bed, after all. Pulling on his nightshirt, he slipped under the covers.

I think the new paragraph sets things up better for what happens next, as well as providing more insight into Severus's character.

The final bit I want to bring up is somewhat, although not completely, spoilery. So if you're the type of person who hates to know anything about the ending before you read a story -- as in various twists and turns of the plot, or, oh, whether it's a happy ending or not -- and you haven't read this story yet, stop reading this lj entry now. Although I'm still going to avoid giving away the pairing. Ahem.

About the ending.

I wasn't too confident of the ending, particularly the letter, which originally began:
Please forgive my lack of correspondence over the past months, as well as my abrupt departure at our last meeting. My life has been in a bit of an upheaval recently, as you might have guessed, but I am finally settled in a cottage not far from Toulouse.

[info]amanuensis1 agreed:[X] disappeared, not merely in the middle of the night, but two seconds after the sex, taking his possessions, white-gold ring, and Severus's purse. Like a common, no-good little trollop. Of course, we KNOW the situation is different... But do you think... there might be a moment where we see into Severus's head that HE gets that? That he holds no grudge? Because, really, I think [the] letter presumes a lot....What if the letter was not quite so breezy but had a bit more to that opening apology? "I wished to thank you for the small loan you made to me on our last meeting-- happily, I have funds enough to pay you back now. Though I could simply send them, I am wondering if you would have any interest in
seeing me in person..." At your discretion, but, that's what I would say would give me a better sense of acceptance here.

[info]telensar also noted this, saying: </cite>I like the ending. But maybe you could have something about Snape
taking back his stolen Galleons in trade, something just a little
more edgy and Snape-y?</cite>
So the beginning of the letter changed to:
Please forgive my lack of correspondence over the past months, as well as my abrupt departure at our last meeting. I would like to thank you for the small loan you made to me; happily, I am now in a position where I can return your generosity. I can forward the funds by owl if you like, but I would very much like to repay you in person.

There were lots of other small things, of course. [info]fabularasa thought my original choice of "Jean-François" was a weird name for a French owl, and [info]telensar obligingly provided "Chouette." [info]telensar wondered if Snape would really tell a madam about his personal life -- I didn't change that bit, because I think it was information that the reader needed to know, and that by showing their comfort with each other through other ways (her calling him "Sev," for example) I had established their relationship). [info]fabularasa squicked at "gel" for lube, so I sidestepped that issue by rephrasing the sentence in question. A few minor errors (e.g. Apparition for Apparation) were gently caught.

So although I did not act on all the comments my betas made, those I did act upon (most of them) made it a better story. It's still recognizably my story -- but with the rough edges filed off. In particular, since I had a gut feeling the ending wasn't satisfying, but didn't know why, it was incredibly helpful to have my betas articulate what they felt was wrong with the ending -- which in turn helped me to see why I wasn't happy with it, and to fix it.

Anyway, I hope that illuminates my small corner of the beta process.


(Post a new comment)


[info]shadowluck
2003-08-13 06:10 pm UTC (link)
And very illuminating it was indeed. Looks like you have wonderful betas. Thanks for sharing.

(Reply to this)


[info]laurelwood
2003-08-13 06:12 pm UTC (link)
This is just the kind of "Snarky Beta" essay I've been wanting to read. Great and very useful information about both the beta-ing and the writing process, and it I like that you used this story as an example, since I read (and very much enjoyed it) recently enough to recall all the details easily.

Thanks!

(Reply to this)


[info]justacat
2003-08-13 06:13 pm UTC (link)
I found this fascinating. I have very mixed feelings about seeing "behind" the story - the old laws and sausages problem, and I like to believe in the illusion of effortlessness created by good writing - but I also love getting into the nitty gritty details, seeing "the way things work" (bought that great book for my nephew and kept it for myself, I was so entranced!) and I've always wanted to be a fly on the wall during a beta process. Thanks for sharing this.

(And I really enjoyed the story, too!)

(Reply to this)


[info]thistle_chaser
2003-08-13 06:34 pm UTC (link)
Wow, so interesting! And you can tell what good... Well. I started and deleted this sentence twice 'You can tell what good writers the three are by the suggestions they gave', but I suppose that might not be true. I'd think maybe a good editor can have an ear for rhythm and flow without actually being a writer themself.

Either way, interesting stuff!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]isiscolo
2003-08-13 07:23 pm UTC (link)
It doesn't take a good writer to be able to distinguish the good from the bad, just as it doesn't take a good cook to appreciate a tasty meal (or recognize a bad one). But where a sophisticated critic can point out the flaws in a story, a sophisticated writer can make cogent and specific suggestions on how to improve it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]thistle_chaser
2003-08-13 08:30 pm UTC (link)
Huh. Yeah, that makes sense.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]dragonelle_fics
2003-08-13 06:46 pm UTC (link)
Thank you so much for posting this. I am a big wimp about having my writing beta'd, and it's tremendously helpful to see solid examples of the kind of constructive criticism that can/should emerge from the process.

(Reply to this)


[info]millefiori
2003-08-13 07:05 pm UTC (link)
I too want to thank you for sharing this. In fanfic circles people often talk about the need for a good beta, and of course you get to see public thanks from grateful writers, but (I suppose in the interest of discretion, on both sides) it's pretty rare to actually get to see details.

This sort of openness also helps to clarify what people actually mean when they refer to a rip-it-to-shreds beta, or a kind, tactful beta. I think that's a big drawback in any discussion of beta reading, actually - because the process tends to be so private, we have no idea if we're actually communicating with each other, or if we're inadvertently talking apples and oranges!

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]isiscolo
2003-08-13 07:37 pm UTC (link)
(I suppose in the interest of discretion, on both sides)

I suppose I should have gotten permission from my betas to publicly post their criticisms. Oops. Um, if you guys want me to recant, let me know.

This sort of openness also helps to clarify what people actually mean when they refer to a rip-it-to-shreds beta, or a kind, tactful beta. I think that's a big drawback in any discussion of beta reading, actually - because the process tends to be so private, we have no idea if we're actually communicating with each other, or if we're inadvertently talking apples and oranges!

Oh, how true! About halfway through one writer's story where every other sentence ended with or contained an ellipsis, and sick of writing "replace this ellipsis with a period," I commented, "You need to go through a twelve-step program for ellipsis addiction. I am...going to forbid you...from ever using...ellipses...again..." She got huffy and we ultimately parted ways. Then several months later I beta'ed another writer who had a similar addiction, and told her the exact same thing -- she sent back a very nice email telling me that she appreciated me bringing it to her attention and that she would work hard on trying to eliminate them (and the second story she sent me was far better ellipsis-wise!).

So snarkiness is somewhat in the eye of the beholder. And I should point out that none of my betas are the no-holds-barred shreddy types. They all point out the good as well as the bad. Um, which I try to do as well, although I suspect I am at the shreddy end of the scale.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]telensar
2003-08-14 11:21 am UTC (link)
I suppose I should have gotten permission from my betas to publicly post their criticisms

I’m delighted. I was curious to know what your other betas had said, too. And I think you’re brave to open up your writing process like this.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

dare to bare
[info]fabularasa
2003-08-13 07:26 pm UTC (link)
You are definitely the girl who strips off all her clothes at a party.

This was such a cool thing to do. The back of the Norton anthology has a wonderful reproduction of one of Yeats' poems in process -- much line crossing and scribbling, much "stitching and unstitching." I have always been hypnotised by it, as I am by this, not least because as a beta you wonder, hmm. . . what're the other betas saying? I've often thought it would be fun to conference-beta. So let's just take this the next step, shall we? Next time you write something, you just post it on lj, and then [info]telensar, [info]amanuensis1, and I can post our comments for everyone to see, and we can have each other's to refer to as well. Now, wouldn't that be instructive?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: dare to bare
[info]isiscolo
2003-08-13 07:43 pm UTC (link)
I guess I should have asked your permission before taking your clothes off as well, huh?

I'm just fascinated by process. (I want to say something about meta beta here, just because that sounds cool. Meta beta meta beta!) I keep thinking about actually writing down all the notes I make in my head in preparation for a story, and then posting it later so that people can see how a story morphs from conception to creation. Hell, In Want of a Wife was originally going to be Snape/Lockhart.

And, actually, I think having mutually ignorant betas (oh, that's not quite what I mean, but you know) is a good thing, because they don't come to the story with any preconceived notions. Mentioning that I wasn't happy with the ending was unusual, and a bit of a tip-off; more interesting was a bit with Ass where [info]amanuensis1 zeroed in on a paragraph I wasn't happy with, and echoed my thoughts on it exactly -- thoughts I hadn't shared with anyone -- which confirmed my suspicions and led me to rework that section.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: dare to bare
[info]darkkitten1
2003-08-14 09:23 am UTC (link)
Fascinating post and discussion.

Absolutely y'all should try stripping in public! Er, I mean conference-betaing.

I've done this often with great success. It's a lot of fun as a beta to see what other betas did with the same issues you played with. The way we'd usually work it is that in round one each beta writes a response alone, without looking at any of the others'. Then in round two everyone posts a meta-beta, where they can agree/disagree with the other betas' comments. In round three the author responds to all the meta-betas in one long post. Works best with two to five betas if they are wordy, or more if they are terse.

The resulting tome risks ending up many times longer than the fic (not that the author usually minds this). It takes time. But few joys in the world compare to watching brilliant people lock horns over one of your sentences.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]lasultrix
2003-08-13 11:22 pm UTC (link)
Chouette is a fabulous name for a French owl! Go [info]telensar.

I confess that I never use a beta for short pieces. The delay never seems worth the pay-off, as I am an obsessive self-editor, and errors in all writing, including my own, tends to jump out at me. I'm sure that if I did get every fic I write beta'd, the overall standard of my writing would be slightly higher, but I'm happy enough with the standard of my short fics. If a few words could have been better chosen, so be it.

Plus, I sometimes edit later after feedback. Erin sent me a very good, detailed feedback e-mail on the only Smallville fic I've ever written, and I made edits afterward. An American RL friend read my AtS fic, and I changed 'trousers' to 'pants'.

I definitely agree that for longer pieces, though, a beta is invaluable. You have so much internal consistency to keep going, and what you have to convey to the reader becomes so much more complex. If I never had VM beta-read, I'd probably still think it was a good fic, but I'd know it had several mistakes in it.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]isiscolo
2003-08-14 08:09 am UTC (link)
I guess it depends on your definition of "shorter" -- I don't bother with betas on drabbles or quickie fun things that I just throw together. But oh, yes, for long stories you just have to have someone checking for consistency. (In Scars, which for me was a long fic, [info]telensar caught that I had spelled the name of an extremely minor OC slightly differently in the second half of the story -- aie!)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]faerieflight
2003-08-14 03:17 am UTC (link)
I found your entry absolutely fascinating. Now, I don't really write that much, but I know how to appreciate good writing when I see it.

Unfortunately, I have been exposed to all kinds of stories, and have gotten rather desensitized to the beauty and intricacies of the English language. Nowadays, I don't even wince much at spelling errors anymore! -gasp-

Your post remedied that distressing lack. I have been reminded anew of what good writing should be, and I thank you very much for sharing.

To tell you the truth, I don't normally read this pairing, but the lovely prose just caught me and refused to let me go. Proof of how language can overcome all squickish barriers.

Oh, and as a side note: You have wonderful betas.
-bows in worship-

(Reply to this)


[info]amanuensis1
2003-08-14 04:21 am UTC (link)
What I found particularly nifty about this essay was seeing what others focused upon in seeing the same first draft, that went past me. See, multi-beta is indeed an excellent thing! I really enjoyed reading this.

I think most of us beta the way we'd want to be beta'd. Unless I have a pre-agreement with an author that I am pressed for time and will only make a "Here's what didn't work for me and I think you should consider altering" response, I like to talk about both the positive and the negative in a story. (And to couch the negative constructively and gently. Don't want to put anyone on the defensive if I can help it!) Because otherwise, how would we know what was particularly good, so that we know where our strengths are and how to cultivate them?

And beta-ignorance (see above) works well, except that it might be sensible to run things that you are uncertain of off your other beta(s). I had one beta say, "I thought the last line was a bit overdone and silly," and happened to write to the other beta "I changed the last line a bit," and was met with protests of "WHAT? No, the last line was just right! Put it back!" So, in the face of that kind of vehemence, I did put it back. ^_^

I'm reading through your whole post again and thinking, "Man, I'm awfully lucky to have you guys reading my stuff! I must have been building up some karma."

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]isiscolo
2003-08-14 08:18 am UTC (link)
And beta-ignorance (see above) works well, except that it might be sensible to run things that you are uncertain of off your other beta(s).

Hee. This is where I tell you that I had to run the revised version of the ending by [info]fabularasa because she expressed concern when I told her I was changing it. I suppose having an odd number of betas helps -- you all could vote on things!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]darkkitten1
2003-08-14 09:52 am UTC (link)
I think most of us beta the way we'd want to be beta'd. Unless I have a pre-agreement with an author that I am pressed for time and will only make a "Here's what didn't work for me and I think you should consider altering" response, I like to talk about both the positive and the negative in a story. (And to couch the negative constructively and gently. Don't want to put anyone on the defensive if I can help it!) Because otherwise, how would we know what was particularly good, so that we know where our strengths are and how to cultivate them?

Amen, Amen, Amen.

My quiet personal crusade: positive feedback. *waves her tattered banner* Detailed, careful positive feedback. IMO it's much more of a challenge to explain what is right with a story than what is wrong with it, because hitches in logic or phrasing trip you up, break the rhythm of reading and otherwise make themselves noticed. But the little touches that make you purr, shiver, laugh or get all hot won't stop you in your tracks. Instead they lurk below the surface, busily pulling you in.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)


[info]amanuensis1
2003-08-15 06:19 am UTC (link)
One of the things that I'm guilty of too is the feedback that says, "Oh, and the sex was really hot!" Now, sometimes, in my stories in particular, the sex is a very significant part of it-- it may go on for pages and pages and pages. So essentially, "the sex was hot" is about as useful as "your fic was great." Don't get me wrong, it's nice to hear that! It's just not all that constructive as feedback. And many people don't even read the smut; it bores them, they skip it. So those of us who enjoy reading the smut (me for one; a mediocre fic that promises NC-17 will often have me yelling, "Get to the shagging!") might, if we want to leave constructive feedback and not just a "It was great, wish I could say more!" comment, keep that in mind.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]blue_gryphon
2005-08-05 03:07 pm UTC (link)
You have such good betas *sighs*. Where did you find them? The only ones who found me have worse grammar so nothing gets done at all. It really is nice to find stories that are grammatically perfect and read well - they're so rare on some sites that it almost makes you give up (note the almost) and then you find something like this and suddenly it's all worth it again.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]isiscolo
2005-08-05 03:23 pm UTC (link)
I think the best way to get good betas is to be a good beta; all of us mutually beta each other's work. All of us are good with grammar, so there are only tiny changes grammar-wise that need to be made. It's very difficult to beta someone who has very poor grammar skills, and it's frustrating, so soon the writers and betas aggregate into skill-level groups, I think, where the good betas are really only betaing those of approximate equal skill. This doesn't help the writers who are pretty good but still have problems, though. I don't know.

Sorry about the ramble. Just thinking out "loud".

(Reply to this) (Parent)


Create an Account
Forgot your login or password?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…